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 Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"

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PJG1412
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PostSubject: Small Tug with RC   Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:33 am

I am thinking of making a tug (1960) scale not too sure about this, but
about 8 inches long, this would then match up with the other 2 merchant
vessels I have built(see photos later) I would like to make it radio
controlled but believe the small scale will cause problems with battery
and servos am I right ?
I also have a model of the Revell Snowberry which I have often thought of making RC.
Any ideas would be very helpful.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:09 pm

Making a tug 8" long is fine there are options to use small 180 size motors, micro servos (ebay) battery power for a motor that small could easily be run off a 9V battery (the rectangular ones) or a 4 pack of AA giving 6v, there are also 1-2 & 5 amp esc's available on the market with a quick bit of googling will show them up.

The only concern to making a tug that small will become where its used, on calm water you should have very few issues, but on water with a bit of chop the model runs the risk of being lost due to its size and stability.

Personally I would look into making it a larger scale maybe around the 12" mark in overall length which will also give me more room to work in and give greater stability. what ever you decide good luck.

As for the Snowberry they are easily converted to Rc having done one myself, the only thing to remember when building the model for RC is to ensure that the joints are sealed properly with resin, (the hull is in 4 parts) and ensure the keel is also sealed tightly. and ensure the upper deck has some type of combing to help its water tightness as they do sit quite low in the water and a slight chop will allow the model to take on water, but this is the kits limits to conversion. but some photos to encourage you that it can be done very easily.



RR

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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:55 pm

thats all excellent advice from RR there as he rightly points out the smaller a model the harder to achieve stability



however if you do decide to go with an 8 inch model make her as light as possible and with an overdeep draught.



Light so there's an oppourtunity to put some lead in the lowest position possible and over deep to help get that weight as far below the waterline as possible and it also increases displacement so more weight is needed giving more stability.



alternatively a removable external ballast weight is an option



for small rc components think outside the box a little and check such people as "giantcod" and "microflight" mostly model aircraft component suppliers but a servo is a servo mate and these boys have some teeny tiny weeny ones in some cases as light as 4g
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:09 am

Thanks for the advice, I will start looking at the options. Meanwhile I have just posted photos of the Snowberry.
Pete
PS: will let you know what I do.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:11 am

Phil, Your location is that Wellington Somerset UK or NZ ??
Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:19 am

Sunny Somerset Pete Very Happy except its not so sunny today Sad
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PostSubject: tug   Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:21 am

HI PHIL, thank you for wake up call, sorry i haven't used the site , last time i hit picked a virus trying to post some pictures,
which I found to fiddly . as for small tug Glynn guest knocker white might fit the bill ,
by the way i am at THORNBURY show on SUNDAY on CLEVEDON stand. cheers LARRY.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:54 am

Hi Larry if thats next sunday (28th) I'm at honiton hill steam rally with the club on a static display mate, No worries about the shout out and as for picking a virus from our picture hosting site I'm a little suprised perhaps you need to get your antivirus software reviewed as its not an issue thats been reported before personally I use avast anti virus and have my pop up blocker set on + my firewall set to high touch wood no problems so far



The glynn guest plan suggestion is a good one his designs are usually spot on
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:01 pm

Phil/Roadrunner, Thanks for your advice, I have started building the hull without any plans so goodness knows what it will turn out like, hopefully a TUG. Its a mess at the moment but glassfibre is very useful.The hull is 23cms/9inch long and across is 7cms. It looks all wrong at the moment as I have allowed room for the batteries etc, hopefully with ballast I can get the waterline OK. I have a pool which I sail the models so there is no worry about rough water unless I make it !!
I have bought the Viper 10 marine ESC on the advise of my local. Also have purchase a very small servol, but he wasn't able to supply the motor/prop etc. So I am going to check out the internet now and see if I can find the size I require. Meanwhile any input from yourselves would be appreciated now you know and see the size.
Regards
Pete


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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:22 pm

Pete try Dave Milbourne at action electronics or Mark Windless of mmb (marks model bits) for the motor, a quick google search will find both and their respective tel numbers are on their web sites both are very knowlegable regarding motors/hull combos and will be only to happy to help
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:14 am

Hey Pete

Glad to see you have made a start.

only advice i can offer you is to keep going and see how it turns out, then take every thing you have learnt as a lesson and move on maybe do a 2nd?

if your having issues with some areas of construction there are tug hulls out there you can pick up, made with GRP or ABS, the best one (and cheapest) that springs to mind would be the seaport tugs the hulls are great and can be converted every easy its a great all round platform to build on. Take a look at the seaport tug section for ideas.

it may help you in construction if you find your struggling, but as i said don't give up yet put everything down to experience.

Good luck looking forward to seeing more.

RR

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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:17 am

After a long chat with Mark of MMBSHOP I now know what components are required. The hull is pretty near finished except for a different colour maybe, in the water she holds a lead weight of 13 ounces (400grams) and sits upright nicely. Again Thanks for you input.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:35 pm

lol! Should've warned you about Mark matey he's the only one I know who can talk more than me lol! glad you got it all sorted though
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:22 pm

Nearly finished. The photos shows her in the water with lead bits as ballast, but no RC components installed. I was warned she maybe
top heavy, and I think I have a problem. There isn't too much room for anything, see photo. So when the ESC , RC Receiver, battery, are in and the biggest problem the cables she topples over. I have heard of Liquid Gravity which may help with ballast but I am going to try smaller battery, or a iron bar on the bottom of keel, I think she will sink then. I think its a case of "Watch this space"


Battery and Servos

Sir Gilbert

Sir Gilbert and Furness Withy Cargo "Pacific Envoy" in Manchester Ship Canal !!!
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PostSubject: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:00 pm

I started this thread in General modelling, requesting information on how to build a small TUG. Now the Tug is nearly finished I thought it was time to show the model in this Thread. I built this with no plans and doesn't represent any company's vessel. Now have problems with getting the RC in without it capsizing.





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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:56 pm

She is brilliant. I love her..
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:29 pm

She looks a picture mate,



One way round the stability problem is a removeable keel that bolts to the keel proper to get the ballast weight below the boat, this can be removed when not sailing and one advantage is it requires very little weight to keep the vessel stable. Its all down to leverage and moment arms and in the case of your tug would prob only need to be about 2" deep with a lead bulb equivilant to what ever ballast weight you have used to get her down to water line and by removing that ballast you would also have more room inside the hull for bty's etc
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:34 pm

Just what Barry said mate.



I've posted on yourt build blog on one way to improve stability.

With regards to where this thread should be within the forum may I suggest that once you complete the build to your satisfaction I can merge that topic with this one so they run concurrently in this section that way we can keep active build blogs easier to find and completed ones in the most obvious place for the boat in question. up to you mate but the offers there
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:13 pm

Try using a square battery pack instead of a flat one, it seems to be sitting really high like that, a square one might sit down in the curve of the hull better.

Love it by the way!
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:03 am

All the bits are in, with new battery now sitting on keel. Liquid gravity i.e small balls of weight shot glued in as ballast.
Not Happy ....Cables on top causes problem with sitting deck back on.
RC servo twitches like mad, not all the time I suspected its the aerial being to close to battery.
Also not happy when in water: as she is very low, and panic set in as wind came across pool. ..... may set ESC under prop shaft there maybe room.......
affraid

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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:12 am

Phil That's fine,as you can see I'm nearly there,sorry about 2 messages sent. Can you delete one ???
Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:56 am

topics merged and duplicate deleted no probs mate keep at it and I really would think about a false keel below the hull when sailing to steady her
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:53 am

Thats turned out better then i expect, Weldone on your build!

With regards to your stability, tugs do sit low in the water, especially ones like yours, remember a tug sits low to maximise pulling strength , the deeper the prop the greater the torque pull!

However , i recently saw a mini tug smaller then the one you build and it sails beautifully, but his did have a false keel, so this probably where you should be looking to fix.

However sometimes some models just never sail right, i have had a few, and spent weeks and weeks trying to make sail right and failed no matter what i do, tugs are prone to that even more so given there rounded hull shape, they will role badly and more so at very small scales the effect look dramatic, just remember you cannot scale water so any scale model is still subject to real conditions, it may just be one of those boats you can sail in very calm waters.

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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Hi

Love the little tug. Ok I'm not experienced here but it seems to me from what I can see on the photos that any water that gets on deck has nowhere to escape to? If so it might get inside, and if not then it puts weight high up and effects your stability.

Regards Norseman
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:36 pm

You seem to have a valid point there Norseman indeed from what I can see there are no wash ports in the bulwarks but then if sailed in calm waters this shouldn't be a major problem


Ps I do hope that no one on this forum feels that their lack of experience precludes them from making comments or posting otherwise. The whole aim of this forum is to provide a friendly place where those of us with a lack of experience in any thing can learn from those who have that experience. there are no silly questions and no one will be ridiculed for asking any question


Last edited by phil winks on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to add ps)
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:18 am

I have put stabilisers on her, there is another name for them, but can't think now what it is, but it has stablished her, also added a little more ballast, and a new bigger rudder, she sits pretty now, swims about like a cute little duck.
As I am sailing her on a swimming pool (only) I don't have to worry
about water washing the deck, (I hope) but I think I will make some holes and also batten down the deck
better that what it is now, but the top rail
is basal.

I have reconfig. the setup inside, and stopped the engine vibration with padding on each side, and the ESC is now on top of the battery so I don't get the servo twitching. But I do have a problem : it goes out of range of the transmitter at about 6 yards !!! It just stops until I move the signal closer and off it goes again. The receiver is a AM 27MHz (from Ebay) I have 3 other models which have a different receiver, with no probs. which I bought from a local dealer, I am wondering if the AM is an poor product, it was cheap. Six yards is a joke. I have moved the aerial around but its still in the hull, getting it above the deck will be difficult. The pool has a steel frame above it like a tent structure for a plastic cover during the Summer, I understand that this may not help the receiver. Any ideas please.

As the model is pretty well finished I would like to Thank those who gave me advise to complete such a small project. Its not the tidiest of a model ship, but I have proven to myself that I was able to build a small boat, as I have Parkinson with tremor in my right hand. Thank you
Pete





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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:23 am

A brilliant, LITTLE effort... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:23 am

I would suggest possibly a duff receiver as you should get way more than that range, even with the aerial coiled up in a tight knot.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:43 am

Hi Pete

Still love it. Just goes to show that you don't have to build something the size of an Ark Royal on steriods to get a lot of enjoyment and a sense of achievement. As you are sailing in a pool (so you can't lose any) is it (and I have no idea) at all possible to make a couple more and run them simultaneously on the same remote control? If it is possible I think that would be a laugh clown

Oh - no offence meant to those addicted to building on steroids Wink

Regards Norseman
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:28 pm

Hi Pete really a superb job made all the more incredible by the last piece of information. going back to the range issue I have to agree its prob a duff rx
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:37 am

Since my last message I have found out why the Transmitter was losing
the receiver. The crystal I was using in Trans and Rec was 40MHz but the
receiver was built for a 27MHz. Should live and learn !!!
I have
also finished the RC'ing of the Snowberry, she sails well until a wind
whips across the pool, so she certainly not suitable for convoy duty !!!
I think I will get a bigger prop as this may help.
Happy New Year
Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:43 am



Forgot to upload pic
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:28 am

She certainly looks well. Any chance of seeing some detail photos??
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:08 am

I put 3 photos on "WAR SHIPS" back in August.
Pete
PS: I am the middle of making another war ship should get the thread going today
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Hi Pete

looking forward to your new build.

Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:56 pm

Tremendous work and I had to laugh at the crystal issue I think many of us have been there lol. just for your info the "Stabilisers" you added to sir gilbert are I believe correctly called bilge keels and on full size ships are for precisely what you've used them for however if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will put me right
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:01 pm

I don't know where I've been but have only just picked up on your little tug build...........it's great.........or as my daughter would say ahhhh I'ts sohhhh cute............I like it very much, and the sort of boat you can take anywhere with you and pop in the local pond whilst waiting for the kids or the misses to do their shopping.......lovely idea.

neil.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:29 pm

Despite the crystal change the servo still "twitches" like mad, when the prop is run, or even when nothing is touched. I have a P38 ESC, and I switch on the trans. before plugin the battery, also I extend the ariel. Move the Rec. around also the ariel wire, sometimes the prop starts moving, and the sometimes the prop runs off and does not stop even after the trans is switched off. l had a the Rec. replaced even though I caused the problem.

I love the little thing (talking about the Tug) but she is a pain, any ideas chaps. Thanks

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:15 pm

I doubt there is anything wrong with the receiver it will be the antenna coil shown in the pic in this situation the antenna is effectively only a few inches long, for full range the antenna needs to be kept full length and straight every fold or coil shortens the antenna and subsequently the range. Only 2 choices in a tiny model 2.4gig set or accept the limited range.
Great little model though well done.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:43 am

Damien wrote:
Only 2 choices in a tiny model

3rd choice Pete ............ sell the 'lovely' to me I love you

Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:25 am

I have to slightly disagree with Damien. Take a look at this installation in my 18 cm French ferry. I had no problems with this set-up - only finding somewhere to sail it apart from the bath Very Happy



This was on 40Mhz and the motor was suppressed.

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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:06 am

Barrie assuming the green wire is the Rx antenna you have an effective ant. length of 6 - 8"
The antenna length as supplied by equipment manufacturers is the ideal for that frequency shortening it or coiling it will reduce the range and sensitivity of the system, bath tubs or garden pools you may get away with but with other RC sets on close frequencies will cause interference.
Different frequencies will present different problems eg. I believe 2.4ghz must have the short antenna above the waterlineand therefore the Rx as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:16 am

I know the theory Damien, but I can assure you that I used this technique in a number of boats when I used 40Mhz with no range problems. The aerial is not shortened, so there is no problem with matching of the aerial to the receiver, and provided the aerial is spaced out on the former, I did not find any loss of range. In the little tug I did not space it out as range was not an issue.

Barrie
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:27 am

Barrie what is the max distance your model gets from the transmitter?
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:30 am

Suppressor ....sounds good ......I have only got one 1KV from pos to neg, I will change to 2, watch this space. Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:21 pm

Damien wrote:
Barrie what is the max distance your model gets from the transmitter?

Damien, When I was using a coiled aerial, I guess about 100 to 150 yards. The water I was sailing on then wasn't much bigger than that. I also have difficulty seeing what the model is doing at a greater distance Shocked

Barrie
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:37 pm

I have that the same problem with distance I keep my models within 50mt even at 20mt i can't tell which side of a buoy it's approaching.
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:43 pm

The thing with suppressing that's often missed is even two or three suppressors does not give guaranteed results unless the motor case is earthed to the prop tube or shaft giving effective grounding through the water also watch for metal to metal joints that are not a tight fit ie steel control rods on a brass servo horn as the dissimilar metal interaction can cause electrical interference. not such an issue with the prop shaft to tube interface as both are grounded in the water
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PostSubject: Re: Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"    

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Small Tug "Sir Gilbert"
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